Another Note on Gun Extremism - An Appeal to Grandparents

 

I cannot let this latest incident slide by. A colleague posted this article yesterday about a 6-year-old boy who shot a teacher during an altercation inside of a Virginia school. At the time I am typing this the teacher was listed in critical condition. The way this incident is reported is bizarre for a guy whose K-12 years were 1956 to 1969. It has nothing to do with banning guns – but it has everything to do with gun extremism to the point that people get casual about guns. They either forget that children and young adults do not have the necessary judgment to responsibly handle guns or the adults themselves do not exercise adequate judgment and either allow their children to have access to guns or do not secure them at home. Using firearms to settle trivial or inappropriate disputes is a clear example of a lapse in judgement.

Let me paint the picture about what it was like in the 1950s and 1960s before we were deluged with gun demagogues. Many families in the remote area where I was raised hunted for food or sport. The hunting included deer, rabbits, ducks, geese, pheasants, and partridge.  I don’t have any statistics but if I had to speculate – the hunting families were in the minority.  Most families that did not hunt and had no firearms on the premises. The only exception might be World War II veterans with souvenir weapons – mostly not maintained and unloaded.  If you had friends from hunting families and there was a chance that you might go hunting or target shooting with them – you had to take an NRA (National Rifle Association) Hunter’s Safety course. Most people took that course when they were in middle school.  It was taught by a middle-aged guy I knew from church.  He presented the course in a very calm matter-of-fact manner and clearly outlined all of the dangers of firearms.  I recall anecdotes about people being accidentally shot at home and injuries from the wrong ammunition being used in the wrong gun.  Rule number 1 was "never point a gun at anybody - even if you think it is not loaded."  We all fired air rifles and .22 caliber rifles at indoor ranges in his basement and at a larger range in the basement of a retail store downtown.  All guns had to be pointed downrange at all times away from the shooters.  Nobody fired a handgun, because you had to be 21 years of age to do that and we were all 12 or 13.

There were no political or marketing movements focused on firearms at the time.  We had to be NRA members to take the course. As long as you were an NRA member you got a monthly copy of their publication the American Rifleman.  The centerfold for that magazine was a long list of “sporterized” military rifles that could be purchased at a low price. I recall many days pouring over that list and thinking about what kind of rifle I would buy when I was old enough.  I never did buy that rifle.

The other incentives to stay engaged with the gun community was getting ratings based on your marksmanship. If you could demonstrate certain scores on targets you would qualify for small military style medals saying that you were an Expert or Distinguished Marksman. Like most skills, it took a little practice (but not that much) to become proficient in shooting. Contrary to some stories that you read today about hunters and school – nobody ever brought a gun to school. There were no Second Amendment discussions and no suggestion that the training had to do with militias. The result was that there was a small group of middle school kids who had taken a safety course focused on handling firearms while hunting.

That did not mean there were no firearm related deaths in my small community. During those early school years there were 2 suicides and a hunting accident, all involving kids who I knew.  Firearms are never completely safe even with limited access and training.

Back to the article – let me examine two direct quotes starting with:

“Experts said a school shooting involving a 6-year-old is extremely rare, although not unheard of, while Virginia law limits the ways in which a child that age can be punished for such a crime.”

Extremely rare but not unheard of is quite an introduction.  Within the space of 2 generations, we have gone from unheard of to rare but not unheard of. Without being an expert on Virginia law my speculation is that any legal decision about culpability and punishment is based on the capacity of a child to formulate a plan and rationally decide to shoot someone.  The irony here is that you can watch true crime television and see the same problem in all of the 20+ year old men who impulsively commit gun homicide. There are no reasons for these homicides.  They all seem to occur during trivial arguments where somebody gets angry and starts shooting.  The problem, is depending on the judgement of children and immature adults and the solution is not providing them access to firearms.

“Today our students got a lesson in gun violence,” said George Parker III, Newport News schools superintendent, “and what guns can do to disrupt, not only an educational environment, but also a family, a community.”

Unfortunately – the students did not need this “lesson”. From the description they were all traumatized and school shootings are so common in the US, that they are continuously exposed to it. I would not be shocked to learn that many of the students and parents involved had been worrying about an event like this for a long time. The people who ignore this “lesson in gun violence” are all adults.  Many of them are in positions where they could make a difference but consistently fail to do so – or even make decisions that increase the likelihood of future incidents. In the case of politicians, you share responsibility by voting for gun extremists.

As a country are we so oblivious to gun extremism and gun violence that we continue to allow a political party and a politicized gun organization to compromise the safety of school children and teachers? My appeal today is to the grandparents out there – people of my generation. If you remember what the gun atmosphere was like when you were a kid – compare it to what is going on right now.  Were there kids in your first grade class getting into altercations with teachers?  Was there gunfire in primary school?  Do you recall routinely hearing about primary and high school students being shot and killed?  Were there military style high capacity firearms widely available?  Were there armed militias wearing body armor standing outside of your state capitol?  Did the musicians you listen to endorse a lifestyle that involved gun violence to settle minor disputes? Were there people suggesting that you needed to carry a gun around with you at all times for protection? Could you pick up a gun and carry it around with no training and/or no permit?  If you are a person of my generation - the answer to these questions is no.

That is the country we have become. And it is all due to one political party, their politicized allies in the community, and their judges in the Supreme Court drastically changing gun access and attitudes about firearms in the community.  Nobody is safe with these people in power. 

Be a single issue voter and vote the gun extremists out.

 

George Dawson, MD, DFAPA

Supplementary 1:  Update on the incident that initiated this post.  Reports in the press today (1/9/2023) say the teacher was intentionally shot with a 9 mm handgun that the 6 year old took from his mother. There are conflicting reports that the teacher was trying to disarm the student when the shooting occurred.  She was shot though the hand and into the chest. She assured the safety of the rest of the students before seeking help for herself. The status of the handgun while all of that happened is unclear. She was reported as being in stable condition in a hospital.  The school is closed to give "students and families time to heal."

Supplementary 2:

Based on an initial response to this post let me be clear about the way to reign in gun fanaticism in the US.  To my knowledge no responsible person has ever suggested "grabbing guns" or "coming for your guns".  There are too many firearms in the United States for that or for gun "buy backs" to ever be practical. The gun grab argument was basically invented to create gun extremism.  Nobody was worried about it in the 1970s.

We are stuck with widespread gun availability and we need to keep them out of the hands of people who are likely to do the most damage.  Unfortunately that means a majority of people who would not fail either background checks or red flag laws. They are also probably more susceptible to the impulsive use of firearms not just for gun homicides but also gun suicides.  A good starting point would be:

1.  Universal background check - no state to state loopholes or private sale loopholes.

2.  Red flag laws - already incorporated broadly in the FBI NICS (National Instant Criminal Background Check System) database.  That would include people adjudicated by a court as being at high risk of harming themselves or others if they had firearms.  Red flag laws should depend only on a direct or indirect threat to harm with a firearm. Since there is a very serious bomb hoax statute - an actual threat to an individual or a facility should be taken at least as seriously.  The standard should ne a threat to use a firearm and not having to provide the likelihood or using the firearm or potential dangerousness of the person making the threat.

3.  People with substance abuse disorders or mental illnesses at high risk for violence to self or others.  That should include a permanent ban on firearm acquisition where determined by a court.

4.  People with a history of actual violence to self or others. 

5.  Additional factors per the NICS system.

6.  Serious discussion is needed about the permit less system that is now in place in many states. A practical law would be to prohibit assault weapon sales, high capacity magazine sales, and increase the age for handgun purchases to 25+.  But now that there has been a lifting of the moratorium on gun violence research the research on gun violence in this age group and what kind of firearm is being used will make these conclusions obvious.  

7.  Stop encouraging legal gun violence. Stand your ground laws, permit less carry, and widespread access make guns available for dispute resolutions that do not require lethal violence. 

8:  Waiting periods for gun purchases. I have had too many people tell me that a waiting period saved them when they had transient thoughts of self harm.

Supplementary 3:  The easy access to firearms by everybody who want them is based on many false premises.  Here are a few:

1.  Do you really want everybody on the street to carry a firearm? Or do you only want a few special people to be carrying these firearms?   The assumptions here are obvious.  Only the good guys or maybe the masculine guys should be carrying guns. How do we determine who those people are?  Is it sex or gender based?  Or maybe it should depend on race?  Is there a box you can tick to just get a gun. Maybe this is why the gun extremists eliminated all of the boxes.  Thinking through that problem is just too hard.

2.  Maybe the gun extremists really mean that everyone should carry a gun. In that scenario it is fairly predictable that more and more minor disputes and arguments will be settled by gun violence. We have seen that happen in many national cases already and it obviously happens on true crime TV.  Even the Sheriffs in western towns in the 19th century saw this as a problem and had people coming into towns check their guns. (see Tombstone statute from 1851)

3.  There is an assumption that gun owners, especially concealed carry owners are supermen (or superwomen) who never make a fatal mistake with a gun, never get in an argument where they might threaten somebody with a gun, know where their gun is at all times, and never accidentally shoot themselves. We know from the data that none of that is true and we can see recordings of real time incidents on television that illustrate this fact including the news report that lead to this post.

References:

1:  Finley B, Barakat M. Police: 6-year-old shoots teacher in Virginia classroom.  Associated Press.  Fri, January 6, 2023 at 2:20 PM CST  Link

2:  American Progress.  Fact Sheet: Weakening Requirements to Carry a Concealed Firearm Increases Violent Crime.  October 4, 2022. Link

Graphics Credit:

Photo of the Polychrome Mountains that I shot in Alaska.

What is wrong with the APA's press release about the NRA statement?

The APA released a statement about the NRA's comments, probably Mr. LaPierre's statements on Meet the Press on Sunday and a separate NRA release. There are several problems with the APA statement:

1.   The American Psychiatric Association expressed disappointment today in the comments from Wayne LaPierre…

Why would the APA be "disappointed" in a predictable statement from a gun lobbyist?  I really found nothing surprising in Mr. LaPierre's presentation or the specific content. As I previously posted, the NRA predictably sees guns as the solution to gun violence.  The concept "more guns less crime" has been a driving force behind their nationwide campaign for concealed carry laws. The concealed weapons that are being carried are handguns and handguns are responsible for the largest percentage of gun homicides in the United States. It is probably a good idea to come up with a solution rather than reacting to a predictable statement.

2.  The person involved in the shooting is named…

Although it is controversial, there is some evidence that media coverage is one factor that can lead predispose individuals to copy a particular crime.  Although this press release is a minimal amount of information relative to other news coverage, it does represent an opportunity for modeling techniques for more appropriate media coverage and that might include anonymity of the perpetrator.  The NRA release makes the same mistake.

3.   In addition, he conflated mental illness with evil at several points in his talk and suggested that those who commit heinous gun crimes are “so possessed by voices and driven by demons that no sane person can ever possibly comprehend them,” a description that leads to the further stigmatization of people with mental illnesses.

It is always difficult to tell how rhetorical a person is being when they use terms like "evil" and "demons". If they are considered to be descriptive terms for a supernatural force that suggests an etiology of mental illness that was popular in the Dark Ages.  Evil on the other hand does have a more generic definition of "morally wrong or bad;  immoral; wicked”.  In this case it is important to know if the speaker is referring to a definition that is based on evil as a supernatural force or a more common description. This is another educational point. People who experience voices and irrational thoughts involving homicide can be understood. Psychiatrists can understand them and can help them to come up with a plan to avoid acting on those thoughts and impulses and getting rid of them.  The NRA release is basically an indication of a high degree of naïveté in thinking about the unique conscious state of individuals.  The APA release should correct that.

4.  The APA notes that people with mental illnesses are rarely violent and that they are far more likely to be the victims of crimes than the perpetrators

The actual numbers here are irrelevant.  Psychiatric epidemiology cannot be casually understood and the media generally has the population whipped up about the notion of psychiatric overdiagnosis of everything anyway. The idea that some mentally ill persons are dangerous is common sense and forms the basis of civil commitment and emergency detention laws in every state of the union. Advocates need to step away from the notion that recognizing this fact is "stigmatizing". The APA needs to recognize that their members in acute care settings are dealing with this problem every day and need support. It is an undeniable fact that some persons with mental illness are dangerous and it is an undeniable fact that most of the dangerous people do not have mental illness. Trying to parse that sentence usually results in inertia that prevents any progress toward solutions.

The APA seems to have missed a golden opportunity to suggest a plan to address the current problem. The problem will not be addressed by responding to predictable NRA rhetoric.  There several other nonstarters in terms of a productive dialogue on this issue including - the specifics of the Second Amendment and specific gun control regulations. The moderator of Meet The Press made an excellent point in the interview on Sunday when he asked about closing the loophole that 40% of gun purchases occur at gun shows where there are no background checks. It was clear that the NRA was not interested in closing that loophole. The main problem is that the APA has no standing in that argument. Second nonstarter is the whole issue of predictability. Any news outlet can find a psychiatrist somewhere who will comment that psychiatrists cannot predict anything. That usually ends the story. If your cardiologist cannot predict when you will have a heart attack, why would anyone think that a psychiatrist could predict a rare event happening in a much more complicated organ? Psychiatrists need to be focused on public health interventions to reduce the incidence of violence and aggression in the general population and where it is associated with psychiatric disorders. 

What about Mr. LaPierre’s criticism of the mental health system?

“They didn't want mentally ill in institutions. So they put them all back on the streets. And then nobody thought what happens when you put all these mentally ill people back on the streets, and what happens when they start taking their medicine.  We have a completely cracked mentally ill system that's got these monsters walking the streets. And we've got to deal with the underlying causes and connections if we're ever going to get to the truth in this country and stop this…”

Is it an accurate global description of what has happened to the mental health system in this country? He certainly is not using the language of a mental health professional or a person with any sensitivity toward people with mental illness.  There are numerous pages on this blog documenting how the mental health system has been decimated over the past 25 years and some of the factors responsible for that. Just yesterday I was advised of a school social worker who not only was unable to get a child hospitalized but could not get them an outpatient appointment to see a psychiatrist. The government and the managed care industry have spent 25 years denying people access to mental health care and psychiatrists. They have also spent 25 years denying people access to quality mental health care that psychiatrists are trained to provide. We have minimal infrastructure to help people with the most severe forms of illness and many hospital inpatient units do discharge people to the street even though they are unchanged since they were admitted.   Any serious dialogue about the mental health aspects of aggression and violence needs to address that problem.

That is where the APA’s voice should be the loudest.

George Dawson, MD, DFAPA

Supplementary Material:  Quotes from and locations of transcripts – feel free to double check my work.

MTP transcript  12/23:  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/50283245/ns/meet_the_press-transcripts/t/december-wayne-lapierre-chuck-schumer-lindsey-graham-jason-chaffetz-harold-ford-jr-andrea-mitchell-chuck-todd/#.UNlaJ-RqYrV

"I'm telling you what I think will make people safe. And what every mom and dad will make them feel better when they drop their kid off at school in January, is if we have a police officer in that school, a good guy, that if some horrible monster tries to do something, they'll be there to protect them." (p2)

"Look at the facts at Columbine. They've changed every police procedure since Columbine. I mean I don't understand why you can't, just for a minute, imagine that when that horrible monster tried to shoot his way into Sandy Hook School, that if a good guy with a gun had been there, he might have been able to stop..."—(p3)

"There are so many different ways he could have done it. And there's an endless amount of ways a monster.."—(p6)

"I don't think it will. I keep saying it, and you just won't accept it. It's not going to work. It hasn't worked. Dianne Feinstein had her ban, and Columbine occurred. It's not going to work. I'll tell you what would work. We have a mental health system in this country that has completely and totally collapsed. We have no national database of these lunatics." (p6)

"23 states, my (UNINTEL) however long ago was Virginia Tech? 23 states are still putting only a small number of records into the system. And a lot of states are putting none. So, when they go through the national instant check system, and they go to try to screen out one of those lunatics, the (p6)

"I talked to a police officer the other day. He said, "Wayne," he said, "let me tell you this. Every police officer walking the street knows s lunatic that's out there, some mentally disturbed person that ought to be in an institution, is out walking the street because they dealt with the institutional side. They didn't want mentally ill in institutions. So they put them all back on the streets. And then nobody thought what happens when you put all these mentally ill people back on the streets, and what happens when they start taking their medicine."We have a completely cracked mentally ill system that's got these monsters walking the streets. And we've got to deal with the underlying causes and connections if we're ever going to get to the truth in this country and stop this"—(p7)

NRA transcript 12/21: http://home.nra.org/pdf/Transcript_PDF.pdf

"The truth is that our society is populated by an unknown number of genuine monsters — people so deranged, so evil, so possessed by voices and driven by demons that no sane person can possibly ever

comprehend them." (p2)

"Yet when it comes to the most beloved, innocent and vulnerable members of the American family — our children — we as a society leave them utterly defenseless, and the monsters and predators of this world know it and exploit it. That must change now!" (p2)

"As parents, we do everything we can to keep our children safe. It is now time for us to assume responsibility for their safety at school.  The only way to stop a monster from killing our kids is to be personally involved and invested in a plan of absolute protection. The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. Would you rather have your 911 call bring a good guy with a gun from a mile away ... or a minute away?" (p5)

"Now, I can imagine the shocking headlines you'll print tomorrow morning: "More guns," you'll claim, "are the NRA's answer to everything!" Your implication will be that guns are evil and have no  place in society, much less in our schools. But since when did the word "gun" automatically become a bad word?" (p5)

"Is the press and political class here in Washington so consumed by fear and hatred of the NRA and America’s gun owners that you're willing to accept a world where real resistance to evil monsters is a lone, unarmed school principal left to surrender her life to shield the children in her care?" (p6)

Additional Reference:

Copycat Phenomenon in medical literature (references 5, 13, 20, 26 are most relevant).

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

That is a direct quote from the NRA's chief lobbyist Wayne Lapierre.  In the same NYTimes piece he goes on to say that declaring our schools gun free zones serves only: "“tell every insane killer in America that schools are the safest place to effect maximum mayhem with minimum risk.”  There has been some mild outrage in response to this comments but I don't know what people would expect from the NRA.  They see guns as a solution to everything.  They literally believe that with guns there is less crime despite the hard data that points to the fact that the USA has the highest (by far) homicide rate by firearms, the highest rate of gun ownership, and the highest rate of assault deaths of any of the top 30 countries of the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development.  In fact, this NY Times graphic of the data shows that over half of the homicide rate is firearm related.  The total homicides in the US at 9,960 is nearly seven times greater than the total of all the other countries on the list.  The total number of suicides by firearms greatly exceeds this number (18,735 in 2009).  It seems to me that the gun data suggests that we currently have maximum mayhem with maximum risk.

Getting back to the proposed NRA solution.  Let's look at the arithmetic first.  Just considering the number of public schools in the US, current data from the National Center for Education Statistics puts that number at 98,817.  Assuming a cost of one armed guard per school with vacation coverage and benefits I would conservatively estimate a cost of about $100,000 per year or a total of about $9.8 billion dollars per year.  That is a substantial outlay of capital for what is an unproven strategy.  According to the Wikipedia list there have been 40 school shootings since 1989.  Using a a mean number of schools during the period (or about 91,638) would mean that the odds of one of these armed guards encountering a shooter would be about 2/91,638 on an annual basis.  The Transportation Security Administration responsible for airport security has a total budget of  $7.7 billion and they cover 450 airports but confiscate 1,300 firearms and 125,000 prohibited items per year.  $929 million of the TSA budget is for the Federal Air Marshal Service that assigns agents to commercial flights.  To put an armed guard in the schools would roughly cost what it costs to secure air travel in the US.  The main difference would be that school guards might have a much lower level of vigilance than air travel security and they would need to be very vigilant to head off a sudden and potentially very lethal attack.

Arithmetic aside, there is also the question of associated costs.  In medicine we are familiar with the screening arguments for breast and prostate cancer.  There is always a false positive and false negative cost.  With false positive PSAs and mammograms there is the ordeal of unnecessary biopsies and exposure to other unnecessary tests.  There is no way to estimate the impact of armed guards at schools.  Currently there are about 500,000 violent crime and over a million thefts committed against teachers in America's middle and high schools.  In a previous Institute of Medicine report,  the authors found that a  "substantial number of boys" carry firearms in schools.  That same study reported:

"Despite all this effort to keep guns from children  the committee was somewhat astounded at the ease with which the young people in these cases acquired the weapons they used.  Only in the Jonesboro case were the powerful weapons in the home of one of the too well secured for them to access.  But it was easy to defeat the security measures of another relative and get hold of a powerful semiautomatic rifle with a scope.  In general, it is easy for young teens to circumvent both the law and informal controls designed to deny them weapons they use in their crimes." (ref 1)

There is also the risk of unintentional discharge of weapons.  The New York City Police Department keeps a public record of all weapons discharges from its 33,497 police officers.  According to this report there have been 15-27 "unintentional discharges" per year over the past ten years.  With a school workforce nearly three times as large and possibly less vigilant than an NYPD officer that is potentially a lot of accidental discharges.   How many are acceptable in and around our schools?  The false negative/false positive cost of putting  armed guards into schools based on these factors is really unknown.  

Considering this problem has also led me to think about some epidemiological concepts that we were all taught in medical school.  Primary prevention measures are designed to reduce the incidence of new cases of disease.  Secondary prevention is focused more on people who are identified as being at risk but who are unaware of the fact that they may have the problem.  Tertiary prevention occurs after the problem is declared.  In the case of suicidal or homicidal behavior that means after the critical incident occurs.  This paper looks at these concepts in the case of suicidal behavior.  As far as I can tell there has been no exhaustive look at a timeline of all of the preventive factors that occur prior to mass shooting events or school violence events.  The usual method of analysis is looking at cases for a common profile and as the IOM report showed - there was none.

This analysis cannot predict whether the NRA stand on guns in schools will be protective or not.  It is much more complex than a statement that guns are a solution to gun crimes.  Based on what we know about these situations a key strategy is preventing the shooter from picking up the weapon in the first place.

George Dawson, MD, DFAPA

1.  National Research Council and Institute of Medicine. (2003) Deadly Lessons - Understanding Lethal School Violence.  Case Studies of School Violence Committee.  Mark H. Moore, Carol V. Petrie, Anthony A. Braga, and Brenda L. McLaughlin, Editors.  Division of Behavioral and Social Sciences and Education.  Washington, DC: The National Academies Press.

2.  Ganz D, Braquehais MD, Sher L (2010) Secondary Prevention of Suicide. PLoS Med 7(6): e1000271. doi:10.1371/journal.pmed.1000271

3.  New York City Police Department.  Annual Firearms Discharge Report 2011.

4.  Meet  the Press Transcript. Sunday December 23, 2013.  Wayne LaPierre discusses current NRA positions on school safety and gun control.

Violence Prevention - Is The Scientific Community Finally Getting It?

I have been an advocate for violence prevention including mass homicides and mass shootings for many years now.  It has involved swimming upstream against politicians and the public in general who seem to believe that violence prevention is not possible.  A large part of that attitude is secondary to politics involved with the Second Amendment and a strong lobby from firearm advocates.  My position has been that you can study the problem scientifically and come up with solutions independent of the firearms issue based on the experience of psychiatrists who routinely treat people who are potentially violent and aggressive.

I was very interested to see the editorial in this week's Nature advocating the scientific study of mass homicides and firearm violence. They make the interesting observation that one media story referred to one of the recent perpetrators as being supported by the United States National Institutes of Health and somehow implicating that agency in the shooting spree and that:

"In this climate, discussions of the multiple murders sounded all too often like descriptions of the random and inevitable carnage caused by a tornado or earthquake".

Even more interesting is the fact that the National Rifle Association began a successful campaign to squash any scientific efforts to study the problem in 1996 when it shut down a gun violence research effort by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The authors go on to list two New England Journal of Medicine studies from that group that showed a 2.7 fold greater risk of homicide in people living in homes where there was a firearm and a 4.8 fold greater risk of suicide.  Even worse:

 "Congress has included in annual spending laws the stipulation that none of the CDC's injury prevention funds "may be used to advocate or promote gun control"."

This year the ban was extended to all agencies of the Department of Health and Human Services including the NIH.   There is nothing like a gag order on science based on political ideology. 

The authors conclude by saying that rational decisions on firearms cannot occur in a "scientific vacuum".   That is certainly accurate from both a psychiatric perspective and the firearms licensing and registration perspective. Based on their responses to the most recent incidents it should be clear that politicians are not thoughtful about this problem and they certainly have no solutions. We are well past time to study this problem scientifically and start to design approaches to make mass shootings a problem of the past rather than a frequently recurring problem.

George Dawson, MD, DFAPA

Who calls the shots? Nature. 2012 Aug 9;488(7410):129. doi: 10.1038/488129a. PubMed PMID: 22874927.