tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7772182113499451603.post4412636600037333280..comments2024-03-27T10:50:53.692-05:00Comments on Real Psychiatry: Lies, Damn Lies, And Normal Brain FunctionGeorge Dawson, MD, DFAPAhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03474899831557543486noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7772182113499451603.post-5939554460712838632015-02-15T22:27:48.145-06:002015-02-15T22:27:48.145-06:00Every person in the world has this problemEvery person in the world has this problemCliffnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7772182113499451603.post-58060363997995260482015-02-14T09:41:09.495-06:002015-02-14T09:41:09.495-06:00On the issue of health care, not only did Gruber l...On the issue of health care, not only did Gruber lie repeatedly but he repeatedly bragged about lying. In terms of the impact of those lies, I agree with you the consequences are far worse since this changed 1/7 of the economy. As I've said, I think the 6 oclock news is irrelevant.<br /><br />But the answer is not to let Brian Williams off the hook, it's to go after the Grubers even harder for what they've done. BTW, how does he still have a job at MIT? How does he get more research opportunities given that he admitted he fudged numbers to get the result he wanted? And why did no one in the room raise bloody hell when he started talking like that?James O'Brien, M.D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14994350319492582321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7772182113499451603.post-27789465584448329882015-02-14T00:10:39.046-06:002015-02-14T00:10:39.046-06:00Ok, point taken and a good point it is.
Whether ...Ok, point taken and a good point it is. <br /><br />Whether or not a dead body floated by him in New Orleans or he imagined himself shot down in wartime is nothing compared to the "crimes" committed against the public by the press on the subjects that really matter.RBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7772182113499451603.post-84732841756834644492015-02-13T23:17:14.050-06:002015-02-13T23:17:14.050-06:00RB,
Two thoughts on that:
1. Pharmacy systems a...RB,<br /><br />Two thoughts on that:<br /><br />1. Pharmacy systems appear to be finite and therefore it should be easy to create a system to catch errors. In reality it is not for a number of reasons. Errors are not reported especially if it involves doing additional paper work or jumping through more hoops. EHRs are not intelligent software programs. They are a series of hard stops that can be easily defeated. The best example is the drug interaction software. There is usually a hierarchy of drug interactions of increasing severity. Some physician groups disable some of those stops because of the sheer number of mouse clicks that it adds. Finally, the total number of combinatorics in a polypharmacy environment is staggering and after the first two interactions it is anyones guess.<br /><br />2. I guess you have a lot more faith in the news than I do. It is pretty clear to me that there are always conflicts of interest present in the news - the most palpable one is making the news as sensational (and less objective) as possible in order to sell mouse clicks. It happens all of the time and the cost is significant. In my lifetime we have basically fought 3 unnecessary wars with the associated mortality and morbidity based in a large part by the lack of adequate reporting and investigations by the press. I will provide the Gulf of Tonkin incident and the escalation of the war in Vietnam as one example. Anything that Williams may or may not have said is trivial by comparison unless you are just trying to sell the controversy. Add the governments credit reporting system and health care as an obvious and hidden tax on all Americans and I would say - if there is some credible journalism in this country where is it. They just missed the top three stories in my lifetime. <br /><br />Endeavoring to tell the truth is as close as they can come. I think they have a history of believing they are much more important than they really are but they consistently speaking for the government and their partners in the business world. They have an excellent track record of discrimination against psychiatry superimposed on a larger track record of discriminating against physicians in general while supporting all kinds of "reforms" by new money making industries in health care.George Dawson, MD, DFAPAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03474899831557543486noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7772182113499451603.post-55845019091561089652015-02-13T21:32:30.949-06:002015-02-13T21:32:30.949-06:00Reading the pharmacy journals "medication err...Reading the pharmacy journals "medication error of the month" articles which highlight how a particular mistake happened and how easily it could happen anywhere made me realize two things.<br /><br />One, working in pharmacy is really scary, and two, people make mistakes therefore systems need to be created to catch them.<br /><br />This comment is largely a repeat of my earlier comment with the addition that it is interesting to ponder how Brian Williams made these mistakes. But ultimately the problem is, why was he was allowed to make them in an industry that should be endeavoring to tell us the truth.RBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7772182113499451603.post-22330788418036520012015-02-13T17:24:14.098-06:002015-02-13T17:24:14.098-06:00BTW
http://www.denisecummins.com/
That CV does n...BTW<br /><br />http://www.denisecummins.com/<br /><br />That CV does not appear to be that of a right winger with an agenda. I interpret the current memory neuroscience in much the way she does.James O'Brien, M.D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14994350319492582321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7772182113499451603.post-3882705342836378722015-02-13T17:19:29.937-06:002015-02-13T17:19:29.937-06:00It's not political, it's factual. I'...It's not political, it's factual. I've been on the other side of the debate when people claimed in McMartin that children never lie. Arguing that Williams has false memories or didn't remember accurately does not comport to what we know about false memories and what those deficits reflect. I don't the author I cited had any political agenda. I certainly don't in this case. The argument that this isn't deliberate and calculated doesnt jibe with the fact that most people, who indeed have flawed memories, don't go out and do what Williams did. <br /><br />No one believes that memory is infallible except for the recovered memory crowd. That is a straw man. There is a qualitative difference between not remembering something accurately and coming up with a self serving elaborate story that you continue to repeat when confronted with the facts. <br /><br />I really think you might want to tee up a mulligan on this one. In any court of law this would fail to meet Daubert standard. I would encourage you to read more about how many times Williams did this and how many times he was confronted by his bosses and told to knock it off. <br /><br />The recovered memory people used to think memory was infallible, trendy neuroscientists that false memories can't ever be distinguished from lies. They are both wrong.<br /><br />In any case, it doesn't matter. Seizures are not under voluntary control, and yet you can't drive with uncontrolled epilepsy. If Brian Williams has truth epilepsy, someone else should do his increasingly vestigial job.James O'Brien, M.D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14994350319492582321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7772182113499451603.post-26113913210323118832015-02-13T13:18:28.954-06:002015-02-13T13:18:28.954-06:00I see false memories as being much different from ...I see false memories as being much different from not remembering accurately. The tone of this blogpost is rhetorical - the author posts data that clearly shows that memory can be inaccurate and he concludes that people are suggesting that somebody is "perpetrating the myth that human memory is as fragile as a butterfly and as malleable as clay." The experiment with tampering with eyewitness accounts is interesting considering that the Am Psychological Assoc believes that 1 in 3 eyewitness accounts is inaccurate.<br /><br />Incredible.<br /><br />Unfortunately that is the state of blog debates.<br /><br />I hope to post a rejoinder to the Satel piece this weekend. But in general I would encourage anyone to avoid debating neuroscience like it is the Democrats versus the Republicans. You will miss most of what is going on from that angle.<br /><br />A useful question to consider might be why an elegant and efficient processor like the brain would jump to an all-or-none/yes-or-no scenario?George Dawson, MD, DFAPAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03474899831557543486noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7772182113499451603.post-27225138625274682402015-02-13T12:44:01.545-06:002015-02-13T12:44:01.545-06:00We've gone from one extreme to another, "...We've gone from one extreme to another, "the children never lie" (false memories) to the idea that detailed fabulations can simply be misremembering:<br /><br />https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/good-thinking/201502/how-easy-is-it-create-false-memories-not-easy<br /><br />Williams was told many times by his staff and producers to knock it off but he kept on going after he was shown evidence of falsification. He liked the stories because they made him feel important.<br /><br />False memories as defined by Loftus involves the influence of a biased second party like an incompetent therapist or family member. Williams need no assistance in coming up with his tall tales. <br /><br />He's Jon Lovitz in the liar sketch. The only thing he didn't say is, "yeah, that's the ticket". And that he was dating Morgan Fairchild.<br /><br />No, this false memory defense wouldn't stand up under any standard of evidence and especially not Daubert. <br /><br />Not that six oclock news matters anyway, who even watches that anymore?James O'Brien, M.D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14994350319492582321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7772182113499451603.post-49073815271043825592015-02-09T01:34:23.502-06:002015-02-09T01:34:23.502-06:00George,
You know I respect your intellect but you...George,<br /><br />You know I respect your intellect but you need to think through the implications of this.<br /><br />Neither you nor I now anyone I know has ever concocted such an elaborate falsification and repeated it over a decade.<br /><br />Buying into this line of thinking means the end of accountability. Basically anyone who lies can essentially claim a brain fart so to speak. We might as well not have a judicial system. Or clinical research. Or anything where we have to count on character and honesty.<br /><br />We all know memory isn't perfect. No one is disputing that. But to come up with an elaborate story and repeat it over an over again...there is clearly some kind of Axis 2ish problem here...most people don't do this...I know it is tres unfashionable to talk about character these days and instead blame everything on neuroscience....but Williams clearly got off on the positive reaction to his BS story...<br /><br />Please read Sally Satel's book on junk neuroscience,..it really is a huge problem...and Insel is making it worse...James O'Brien, M.D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14994350319492582321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7772182113499451603.post-33739520414577822912015-02-08T21:25:26.934-06:002015-02-08T21:25:26.934-06:00I think context is important and interestingly sec...I think context is important and interestingly second gain issues of the critics. In many ways it is similar to the types of criticisms of psychiatry that I focus on in this blog. Williams is not a prototypical journalist like Huntley, Brinkley or Cronkite. When he is - reading a highly edited stream of information off a teleprompter he is like all the rest. When he takes on a celebrity status he is not the guy reading perfect information and is like anyone else and subject to the same memory lapses.<br /><br />That information is as fallible as anyone else's, although looking at two different reconstructions of those events even with eyewitnesses on CNN today - it is clear that there is no single narrative - even one that is based on recorded information from the time. When that happens there are only two explanations - either the recollection of other people involved at the time was problematic or there were an improbable number of people colluding to construct the event to look as good as possible for him in the future.<br /><br />I don't think there is any way to construe what is known about the frailties of human memory as junk neuroscience. This is basic psychology even without without the neuroscience. It is also all speculation at this point since I hope that nobody ever examines Williams for the purpose of detecting "the truth". I offer these points up as a counterpoint to the masses saying that this is a clear lie. At this point that fact will never be knowable. Who knows what will need to be done in terms of the overall "investigation" in order to keep him on the air.<br /><br />My point is that the media overreaction to this and the apparent consensus is absurd. As I pointed out in my original post - I have seen people accused of lying and that has probably sensitized me to this issue. I don't accept for a second that is what is going on here and it is obvious to me that the incoherent case by the media changes on a day to day basis.<br /><br />But I am sure at some point they will have it all spliced into a nice neat package.George Dawson, MD, DFAPAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03474899831557543486noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7772182113499451603.post-56768032759416703122015-02-08T19:29:45.208-06:002015-02-08T19:29:45.208-06:00I am not as easily seduced into this argument:
ht...I am not as easily seduced into this argument:<br /><br />http://blog.brainfacts.org/2015/02/brian-williams-false-memory-a-neuroscience-perspective/#.VNgM_bDF_Q8<br /><br />Beware the use of junk neuroscience in the upcoming years...<br /><br />There is a difference between not remembering a dinner and an elaborate confabulation for obvious secondary gain.James O'Brien, M.D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14994350319492582321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7772182113499451603.post-51302799467088640972015-02-08T18:59:36.535-06:002015-02-08T18:59:36.535-06:00He lied. He made it up and when it got positive a...He lied. He made it up and when it got positive attention he embellished. And he kept doing it. But let's stipulate for a moment that the neurocognitive argument is correct. <br /><br />Then he still isn't fit to be a journalist. Other journalists don't have this problems. Find a replacement who doesn't have that issue. Because it is something neurocognitive it will happen again.<br /><br />It's like repeat DUI alcoholism as a vice vs. disease. It doesn't matter. Take away the keys.James O'Brien, M.D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/14994350319492582321noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7772182113499451603.post-5254992805447914372015-02-07T22:54:37.271-06:002015-02-07T22:54:37.271-06:00RB - thank you for bringing up the New Orleans iss...RB - thank you for bringing up the New Orleans issue. I actually saw an interview of a physician saying that there were absolutely no cases of GI illness after the hurricane. That does not match my recollection of the incident (just watching the news) and it makes no sense at all to anyone who knows anything about sanitation measures. Fortunately the CDC collected a large number of facts about infectious disease after the hurricane:<br /><br />http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5440a3.htm<br /><br />It is also well known that Americans can get at least one episode of diarrhea per month that is related to food poisoning. So I think it is another case of how we can prove the so-called lies rather than look at all of the data. I have been getting sick from viruses at least 4-6 times a year from working in health care facilities.<br /><br />Is it really surprising that you might get acutely ill when the sanitation infrastructure of a major city is destroyed?George Dawson, MD, DFAPAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03474899831557543486noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7772182113499451603.post-11645889476925766262015-02-07T13:04:19.136-06:002015-02-07T13:04:19.136-06:00I found Dr. Dawson's points, examples, and rea...I found Dr. Dawson's points, examples, and reasoning very helpful...it made me put my stone down.DBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09732968654910691260noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7772182113499451603.post-76327653181357713102015-02-07T12:15:29.594-06:002015-02-07T12:15:29.594-06:00And, thanks for your post.
You often provide a fr...And, thanks for your post.<br /><br />You often provide a fresh perspective on a subject and an angle I wouldn't have thought to entertain had I not been presented with it.RBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7772182113499451603.post-29551749143898211352015-02-07T11:48:02.985-06:002015-02-07T11:48:02.985-06:00"People lie and people forget - so what?"..."People lie and people forget - so what?"<br /><br />The issue goes beyond this with news organizations. They have the ability and obligation to fact check at least domestically if not during wartime (which I still think was possible but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt at least while the war was going on).<br /><br />http://www.theneworleansadvocate.com/news/11526453-148/nbc-news-anchor-brian-williams<br /><br />If his employers are pillorying him now it is only to remove focus from their own responsibility in the whole matter.<br />RBnoreply@blogger.com